An Engineering/Production question

[Tarkus]

hey mark(e),

randallflagg (from tommytalk) sent me a cd of a band he was with in the early '80s called 'shooting star'. they were really quite good - with a sound sort of like early kansas but with other obvious influences as well. what i'm curious-about is what's changed in recording technology (not just analog vs digital) that has their studio-produced recording very mid-rangey... whereas the stuff we can do has such incredible bass response.

i hear that a lot not only on recording from 20-30 years ago but a lot of the folks with myspace music pages. is it simply the accurate reproduction of digital, or is there something you're doing in the final mix-downs that helps enhance the bass response.

chalk-up this question to why you're the engineer and i'm not! :P

btw, no rush in replying - i'm probably going to knock-off sometime between 2 and 3 today to shower, finish packing, then head-off to the airport. bummer to read on o'2l's forum that they're now predicting snow to start between 3pm and 10pm (my flight lands in akron at 930) - esp since i then have a 60 mile drive up to the motel. ugh. this could be a long night!

will type at you when i return saturday afternoon... l8r!

[MarkE]

Hows this for a late response? I didnt see this message until today.
Interesting question indeed. I really dunno but I can guess...

All electronic studio equipment in those days were based on vacuum tubes, and all the recording done on multi-track tape. Even the tape machines were tube driven. These circuits also used carbon comp resistors and various other older technologies. Carbon comps give you that "warm" sound especially when used in preamps. Also....no audio compressors.
The Eqs were tube based. Capacitors were also quite a bit different in those days and caps make a huge difference when used to pass signals from stage to stage. Im sure that all of these factors apply.

Lately there has been a massive growing interest in old tube amplification. Many guitarists consider amps like the Fender Tweed to be the best sounding amp ever. For bass players, Fenders 57 Bassman.
Many techie guitarists are now scratch (and kit) building these circuits using the original Fender schematics and chassis layouts. recently I have also been drawn into this whirlpool and will soon be scratch building a Fender Twin Reverb. I have also toyed with the idea of building and selling them...setting up a web site, ebay etc. There are a few out there currently doing it.
Many of today's techies are afraid to work on tube circuits because of the dangerous high voltages involved (sometimes over 500VDC. I was initially trained on tubes and am quite comfortable with it.

Sorry...Im rambling. Back to your question....the frequency response of current solid state equipment design is miles ahead of the older technologies. Im sure this is also a factor in the impressive bass response that we have all become used to.

Mark (tube junkie)

[MarkE]

more....
I read your question again more closely. I use a multi-layer EQ technique that I came up with on my own. I will sometimes drive a single track through three different stages of EQ. I found in experimentation that instead of using a massive amount of EQ in one shot, I will apply a little in each stage to get the best results. It doesnt always work but does most of the time.

In fact, that is one of the reasons that production is so tricky. Every instrument is EQed differently, and also the same instrument when recorded days later. I do my initial EQ under headphones, although most who are in "in the know" will tell you that is a no no. It sounds silly but I get real mellow, close my eyes and try to "feel" the sound, adjusting as I go. When I get close to something good, I switch to the studio monitors for the final tweak-out. Everyone has their own technique. This is mine.

Also, when the track is complete and mixed down to stereo, I will reload the track into a new project and EQ and reverb the track again. I usually do this on monitors. I call it "final track plug". When I tried adding Mark's drums to Nutrocker, I wasnt able to get the track plug to my liking. I got lucky the first time. I will try again after things settle out.

I know that Im a rank amateur, but Im learning as I go. I really love the production end of this stuff. Your average person has no idea of how complicated this is, and what role it plays in the final outcome. Most couldnt care less but without proper production, the album turns to shit.

Interesting...I was reading Greg Lakes web site in detail last night. I wasnt aware that he produced all of the early ELP albums. Love Beach, Black Moon etc were done by someone else. I firmly believe that is why the quality and originality of the recordings went downhill. Greg "had the touch". Trilogy was a production masterpiece. Love Beach was too commercial/pop.

One final thought....The Beatles albums wouldnt have been anywhere near as good without George Martin at the board. Listen closely to Seargent Pepper. It is a production masterpiece. production isnt only setting EQs etc....its determining what to include, what instrument goes where, what extra sounds to add, what order things are played in etc etc blah blah. As a producer, you really are a composer of sorts. Thick as a Brick is another masterpiece, overlaying unusual sounds, lutes, flutes and some unidentifiable sounds strategically placed. Pure magic at the production level. With excellent musicians like you guys backing me up, perhaps I will capture some of that magic.

Mark

[MDDRUMZ]

Dude! Amazing stuff you're communicating here. I'm just blown away by your extensive knowledge of the classic equipment. Very cool.

Being the owner and attempted operator of home studio equipment, I can attest to two things. First, yes indeed it's REALLY complicated to master sound production and have resigned myself to the fact that I won't be on the winning side of the equation in my lifetime. It's so hard for me to put together a good drum mix alone, that I can't begin to imagine assembing an entire band's worth of tracks without it coming out like a big fat two-dimensional wall of sound with no "personality". That being said, let me rave a little more about TAP's panning assignments during the guitar middle. Since listening on the car stereo, I've also given a listen from the CD player on the Rolands under headphones. I just realized that you have the little guitar walk ups/downs and the strums separated right and left too. Excellent man! Really. OK and secondly, the only thing that is making you an amateur is the fact that you're not etting paid for your production efforts. I have to tell you, what you're doing with the EMP stuff is MILES above every band demo I've ever listened to people have paid good money to have assembled and ranks up there with stuff that is commercially available. I think I already mentioned it, but even my Mom (who is hard to impress musically) said that TAP had a professional quality to it. So for what it's worth, you're one hell of an "amateur" producer Mr. Lake :)

I couldn't agree more about Trilogy. Being a huge ELP fan, I'm always torn when someone asks me what is the quintessental ELP album to purchase. In haste I've told people BSS, probably because of it's mightiness and diversity. I know my one good buddy and current local bandmate is someone who'd bought BSS based on my recommendation yeras ago and being a bassist, I 'm thinking that he would really have dug Trilogy. I think that is the album where the blend of the three instruments and voice was perfect. I absolutely love the bass on Endless Enigma.

Now for Love Beach. A little disappointing in comparison, from the album cover to the overly poppy first side. But I have to admit, there are a couple of goodies on there and one of the tolerable ones for me is For You. Evidently, ELP thought enough of it to include it on the box set. I was actually digging a couple of little nuances thrown in on the guitar synth track - some cool delay employed. The one thing I've never been sure about was the "guitar synthesizers" that I recall be listed in the album credits. I never knew if this was Emerson playing syths that, for the times, sounded pretty good at imitating an electric guitar. Or if this is Greg Lake playing guitar through a synth like Bill Berends did on old Mastermind stuff.

Mark mentioned Black Moon. But, another 4-worded "dirty word" I haven't heard either of you guys utter since I've known you is "In the Hot Seat". I'd love to hear your opinions on that one. Mark Mancina (sp?) co-writing and producing I believe?

Well, sorry for the lengthy post on a message that really wasn't directed at me in the first place. But I just felt the need to show my appreciation for a job well done and kiss a little ass :)

Hope everything is progressing smoothly in planning and implementing your move, Mark.

[MarkE]

Mark...tnx for the comments. Im humbled

What I like about trilogy is like you said...it is the PERFECT mix of instruments and vocals. Also the album as a whole portrays many feelings. The Moody Blues were great at this. Their "Question" album takes you from Sad (melancholy man) to happy to driving rock (question) to melow and back to sad again leaving on a high note...just as any well produced movie would. Their album Days of Future Past is another...there are times while listening under headphones that you actually feel like you are in a dew covered meadow at dawn prancing with the rabbits. Dawn is a feeling is pure genius, albeit short but the album walks you through all the moods of an average day. Pure magic...pure and simple. Music should make you feel something....same thing with art I guess. Its all in the production...not taking anything away from good musicianship. I think a good producer could take poor musicianship and make it sounds better than good musicianship/poor production. I think it analogous to purchasing an expensive, finely machined airplane model kitand building it like crap. No matter how good the parts are, if it isnt assembled correctly it'll never fly.


WHen we finally assemble all of our songs into a CD I want to capture a little of that. Its a matter of getting the right songs in the correct order. An album should be like one long song in my humble view of things....and hopefully with a theme.


Sorry to be on a ramble today. Too much coffee I guess :) :)

[MDDRUMZ]

I'm on cup #3 and I've only been at it an hour and a half. I hate feeling a dependency on coffee but I'm a little run down right now and trying to stave off a cold.

So, rambling??? Hardly! You're talking to the King of Ramble, as evidenced by most of my posts and e-mails. I've received many a comment from friends and co-workers about that - the NERVE :roll: hehe

You just got me very psyched to give Days of Future Pasta listen on tomorrow's drive in. It's been a long time since I've listened to that.

Wow, this may just be my shortest post ever. Must be losing my touch (please, hold your applause) :wink:

[Tarkus]

hey, my belated thanks for the replies mark... i too learned a lot from them!

as you observe, we're all at different knowledge levels - and my knowledge about the recording process is pretty close to nada... yet another reason i'm glad you take the lead and run with it!

:)