Help! Need advice for a change of direction...

[Tarkus]

Hey Guys,

Shocked to find me in this forum seeking advice? Consider it necessity borne from frustration. Background: I've been using Garageband on my MacBook to record and send you my keyboard trax. I get the sound into the Mac using an Edirol UA1A USB Audio Interface. While it works, it's been anything but elegant - sometimes the Mac will just seize-up in mid-recording (giving an I/O error), sometimes I have random channel dropouts... and, today, distortion has been a constant (and, so far, unsolvable) issue.

Specifically, I've tried for several hours to lay-down the piano part to 'Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24)' - aka 'Carol of the Bells'. I've finally given-up. I made perhaps four dozen attempts, and might've had 6-7 really great takes... except for random channel dropouts (usually the left) and terrible distortion in the bass end making them unusable. Many of those attempts saw me changing the piano patch, changing EQ on both the keyboard and mixer, but still no joy (oh, and being an IT Guy, I did try to reboot as well as recycle the UA1A). No matter what I try, it's muddy with random channel dropouts - and I know it's either in the UA1A or the Mac, because it sounds fine to the ear.

One other wrinkle: I treated myself to the Arturia V-Collection a few months ago - and while I really enjoy playing with it (and can get some really incredible sounds), I cannot play and record at the same time... so, for our purposes here, it's unusable.

This has led me to the inexorable conclusion that I need to buy some kind of standalone digital studio - and hence why I'm writing... for advice... because, until I started looking a few minutes ago, I have never paid any attention whatsoever to the topic - or what's available.

I never intend to get as involved in the production as any of you guys - but as I compared digital recorders to the portable studios, the latter seemed to make more sense from a bang-for-your-buck standpoint. Here's what's caught my attention:

Tascam DP-02CF (http://www.tascam.com/products/dp-02cf.html) (can be had for ~$279)
Fostex MR8HD (http://fostexusa.com/index.php?file=products/digital/mr8hd) (can be had for ~$299)

Do I need 8-track recording? Not really - but when I look at smaller items (e.g. the Tascam DP-004 (http://www.tascam.com/products/dp-004.html)) you seem to get a lot less capability for not much of a cost savings.

I do wonder about the quality of the Fostex - because you can get a version of the Tascam DP-02 with a similarly-sized internal hard drive and CD-RW, but it's a couple hundred more dollars.

I ruled-out Boss and Korg because of either cost or features - and while I like the Alesis bells-and-whistles, their lower-end units record to iPod... which also won't work for me, as that's how I do my monitoring (translation: listening to the reference tracks we're recording against) while I play.

So, in my typical long-winded way, I'm simply asking for some advice / direction. Do either of these units look at all appealing, or should I be looking at something else?

As soon as I get some feedback/validation I'll plan on ordering something - because I'm again in the recording mood and I don't want to let this pass (plus, with the piano-recording issues I'm not sure how much of a holdup it'll be for Graham to finish COTB w/o my doing this).

Thanks for your help! :)

[SilverHamer]

Dave

The link you've posted for the Tascam DP-02CF took me to 7939 Atoll Ave in North Hollywood, CA....HAHAHAHA. I looked around but couldn't seem to find the unit anywhere in the house. ;D

However...I went to the Tascam website and found the unit...

http://www.tascam.com/products/dp-02cf.html

I am with you about Fostex. I have no experience with them but in my own experience in looking at recorders (I have always tilted toward Tascam in the past) the Fostex gear always seemed to rival Tascam in their pricing. Back in the days when you could get a 4-channel Cassette recorder studio (ummm...some 18 or 20 years ago) I was looking at getting a Tascam unit and the Fostex was always right there along side.

If I was to choose between the two units you've shown us, I would probably go with the Tascam. The Fostex DOES have 4 XLR inputs instead of 2, but I don't know that Fostex products would really stand up to Tascam as Tascam (TEAC) has always made very reliable equipment to my own personal knowledge and experience. I still have an old TEAC 4 channel 10" open real deck...I haven't used it in about 10 years but it's from the 1980's and has never failed me. I just got tired of setting it up everytime I moved...LOL. Besides, open real tape sort of went out of style about 20 years ago with the advent of the Compact Disk. LOL.

I have the Korg D3200...it's a costly rig, but it also does a whole lot of things that I haven't even delved into. I think a simple 4 or 8 channel rig like the DP-02CF would be a lot more user-friendly...and from what I have read, you should be able to move the files over to your Mac for editing/mixing/mastering...whatever. It would also afford you easy capability to record more than one instrument along with your piano so you can hear how they sound together. There is great potential.

I do not speak Mac so I wouldn't have a clue about the problems you've described. If it were a PC-based computer I would suggest that you check your soundcard settings...in mine there are controls for playback as well as recording, and the recording levels can be very touchy...the fader settings don't have to be up very much at all to get the incoming signal, and if you set them in a similar position as you would for playback...forget it. You'll be watching your computer vibrate from all of the distortion...HAHAHA. I HAVE, however, experienced this same phenomina when my soundcard was about to kick the bucket. I found out, after my soundcard finally died shortly thereafter, that a new sound card took care of that problem I was having recording. I don't know if this would happen with a Mac as well, but may be a possibility.

I vote that you get the Tascam unit. :D And even if your sound card eventually kicks it, you'll still have a great tool for recording and mixing tracks.

[Tarkus]

Thanks, Larry... esp about the bad link. That's a house I looked-at first thing this morning (I get automated emails @ 8am every day with new property listings in the Los Angeles area) - I can only assume when I thought I copied the Tascam link it didn't copy... that is now remedied.

Anecdotally, I had exactly the same thoughts about the Tascam brand versus Fostex brand. Additionally, for my purposes, I really DON'T need the 40gb HD - because, as you say, I can easily port the tracks into the Mac (Garageband) or the PC (Cakewalk Home Studio) for any editing I might do (which is also equally rare).

I posted a similar bulletin on MySpace and got almost immediate feedback from a bud in the UK - his feeling was that the Edirol, despite being USB2.0, is having trouble keeping-up - thereby causing the channel dropouts and distortion (a kind of maxed-data issue). The Mac can accept firewire - but if I'm going to drop that kind of money into yet another adapter I'm thinking it's more prudent to spend it on a dedicated mixer/recorder. This is even moreso if I ever want to use the softsynths I bought on one of our recordings (because I can't play from and record to the Mac at the same time - I tried it, and the processor all but melts).

Thanks for the heads-up... tally one vote for the Tascam unit. :thx:

[MarkE]

Hi Dave
Sorry I missed this yesterday. Things got pretty busy around here and I spent the entire day in the kitchen playing chef :)

Anyway, to the subject at hand....

I understand your dilemma. My Roland Fantom has all of those record features too but its not so intuitive or easy to use. I think I understand your requirements so here is my opinion.

I think you'll agree that what you are trying to do isnt rocket science so even the most basic machine should work well. I think what you need are only a few basic features

1) Some basic multi-track capability.
2) Some basic mixing/mastering capability
3) and most important..an "easy" way to get your tracks to your computer for emailing, usb, flash card, whatever.

if the machine mixes to mp3 and or/wav that would be great. Otherwise make sure that you can do it on your pc.

I dont see you needing any serious storage capability so I would forget hard drives and cd burners. You can store the tracks on your computer if you like.

If Im correct about all this then the tascam looks like a winner. One thing that concerns me about the cheaper machines is the durability of the slider pots. You dont want anything that gets intermittent or noisy in the short term. Thats a real pain in the ass. There is really no way to know.

yep...enter my vote for the tascam.


EDIT: Another note....you will no longer have to use your ipod to monitor the originals while you play. Move the original to the tascam, plug in your headphones and play to it. When you playback, you can listen to the original with your recorded track on top of it to check your own timing. That makes life real easy.
Also, when you record more tracks (string overlays etc) just do it on another track. You will hear yourself completely mixed together, and when done, mix out everything (except the original) to one track. If graham or I want mulri-tracks instead, you can mix them out one at a time and they will all be correct relative to the starting point...so....no more lining up overlays for us. It'll all sync up.

With a machine like this, if you play a perfect take and flub one note you will be able to go back and fix it (punch-in/punch-out). That alone is worth the price of the machine.

[MarkE]

The more I think about this, more thoughts/ideas keep popping into my head.

one thing to note is that, given that your recordings are all keyboards, virtually all of your audio will be coming from your equipment in stereo format. Most multi-track machines have several tracks but only one or two of them are stereo. You could split up your stereo signal left/right with the correct cable and record it on two mono tracks at the same time (make sure your machine can record more than one track at once), or simply pipe it to a stereo input track. I didnt check the tascam but your ideal machine would have, lets say 8 track capability, with 4 or more being stereo tracks with two inputs (left/right) each. This is important man.




Some midi recording capability might be nice too.

When you select your machine, we could help you order the correct cables (without cables nothing works lol). I'm sure you will want to order them at the same time. I'll download the manual on whatever machine you select and look into it.

[Tarkus]

Thanks for the excellent commentary, Mark - and no worries about being a day late. I've not yet done anything (mainly because of something else you describe - ideas that keep popping into my head too).

I posted the question to MySpace as well as the Chris Caffery board and have gotten some excellent feedback. As you say, some (like you) get what I'm doing... others have the monster suggestions that would rival your production gear. And one friend steered me towards a MOTU Firewire converter - nice piece of gear, but it still leaves me recording onto the Mac... which I'm trying to leave so it's available for soft-synth work.

While the others are still under consideration, I'm now giving a much closer look to the Tascam DP-004 (yeah, the one I said I would pass-on) and the Zoom H4. Why? Pretty much the usage you described. My two keyboard banks feed into two submixers - with everything running stereo. The end result is a left speaker/channel and a right speaker/channel that I then port into the USB converter to feed the Mac. The DP-004 and H4 can both handle two simultaneous inputs (same thing I do now) where they blend into one stereo track on mixdown. Bottom line is that this is all I really need.

I got to thinking about my usage and also size - either of these are basically handheld, and can sit anywhere (space is something of a premium around my keys). And both have overdub capability should I ever decide to do more of my own production (something I view as unlikely) - then again, all I'd have to do is what I do with you guys: just send the individual tracks into GarageBand and use it for mixdown.

In short, I'm now following eBay for some deals on the H4; the DP-004 is brand new so you pay $199 no matter where you buy one. Both store using SD cards - as you say, plenty of space for my needs. I prefer the layout of the DP-004 but I like that the H4 has both *.wav and *.mp3 output directly from the unit and the option of using higher resolution (the Tascam is 44.1 CD-quality only). We'll see...

Thanks again! :)

[EDIT] And, no sooner do I say that I'm looking at lesser units - than I saw an almost-new MR8HD on eBay with <1 day of bidding remaining and only $125 in value. I've put-in a bid of $225... if it goes for that I'll be happy (the unit has four separate inputs)... and if I don't then I'll likely bid on one of the many H4s that appear to be going in the high-100s / low-200s. Either way, I hope to be covered with a reliable recording solution by this time next week.

[MarkE]

Dave,
I went out and took a look at the DP-004. What a cool little device! It has all the basics. With 4 tracks you can still download the original to it and use the other two to record. Very cool.

Either plug your submixer directly into it, or patch the audio out from your laptop for softsynths. Sounds like everything you need. I couldnt find a manual online...release date Nov 2008? You weren't kidding when you said new lol.

My old machine was a zoom MRS1266CD. No quality problems there. It was a great machine. Once I moved my production over to Sonar, I used it as a kick-ass drum machine. Its more fun jamming by yourself if you have a canned drum beat to play to :)

Good luck man!

[Tarkus]

And so it is done. I won my bid on ebay, and am now the proud owner of an almost unused Fostex MR-8HD:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=120324995541

It's a bit more overkill than I think I need, but for $171 plus S/H it priced-out lower than what I would've paid for either the DP-004 or the H4... and I'll have the ability to do four simultaneous tracks in, should the need ever arise.

As soon as I receive it - and learn enough to do a credible, quality recording - I'll lay-down my piano part to COTB and continue-on.

:woot2: